humans& with Alexis Ross, Manya Bansal, and Niloofar Mireshghallah - Weaviate Podcast #145!

About this episode

Alexis, Manya, and Niloofar from humans& join the Weaviate Podcast to introduce Persimmon, a user model built to simulate how humans actually behave in multi-turn, multi-party conversations. Persimmon is explicitly not an assistant, a companion, or a Character AI-style stand-in, it is a research preview aimed at faithfully capturing the distribution of human behavior. This includes the natural friction of frustration, excitement, and group dynamics that assistant chatbots trained to be helpful never exhibit. Alexis, Manya, and Niloofar bring a striking mix of backgrounds to the problem: AI tutoring and student modeling, programming languages for high-performance computing, and privacy and information-flow research at Carnegie Mellon. The conversation opens with whether the Turing test is solved. Humans& runs a distributionally grounded, multi-turn version where the judge sees many examples of human and AI behavior. Frontier models fool it less than 5% of the time, while Persimmon reaches roughly 20% against a 50% ceiling. From there, the discussion dives into training for non-verifiable tasks: why rubrics-as-rewards approaches invite reward hacking, why the team refuses to impose its own theory of human behavior, and how distribution matching, with the multi-turn Turing test as a North Star metric operating in an implicit feature space, rather than Earth mover's distance over hand-picked features anchors both training and evaluation. They walk through evaluating on real human interaction data like the TIDES meeting transcripts and the TutorMoments tutoring dataset, and why role-played or scripted dialogue doesn't count.The discussion then moves into theory of mind and world models as twin goals, with Persimmon enabling multi-agent environments where assistants get realistic human feedback at training time. The podcast further covers the choice of NVIDIA's Nemotron 3 Ultra and why starting from a base model matters: post-training causes mode collapse, you can't prompt-optimize your way out of it, and injected randomness drifts away over long rollouts. The conversation lands on what excites each guest next: personalized tutors, models that balance overlapping human goals, and training paradigms with long-term social pressures. Chapters 0:00 Welcome Niloofar, Manya, and Alexis!2:22 An Overview of Persimmon6:08 Solving the Turing Test13:36 User Models and AGI16:00 RL with Non-Verifiable Rewards20:35 Distribution Matching28:00 Collecting Human Data32:32 Theory of Mind in AI37:40 NVIDIA Nemotron 3 Ultra43:49 Prompt Optimization46:00 Exciting Directions for AI