Podpower Episode AtlasIn this compelling episode, Joe Rogan hosts Scott Horton, a renowned expert on US foreign policy and author of several books including "Fool's Errand" and "Provoked." Horton meticulously dissects the origins and consequences of American interventionism, particularly in the Middle East and Eastern Europe. He challenges mainstream narratives surrounding conflicts like the Iraq War, the Ukraine crisis, and the ongoing tensions with Iran, offering a critical perspective often absent from conventional media.
The conversation begins with Horton's personal journey from a "New World Order" conspiracy theorist to a vocal critic of American hegemony, detailing how the Iraq War disproved his earlier beliefs and exposed the true ambitions of neoconservatives. He explains the "Wolfowitz Doctrine" and the "Clean Break" policy, illustrating how these frameworks led to disastrous outcomes, including the empowerment of Iran and the destabilization of Iraq. Horton also provides a detailed, alternative history of the Ukraine conflict, emphasizing NATO expansion and US meddling as key provocations.
The discussion extends to the current geopolitical landscape, with Horton analyzing the precarious situation with Iran, the complexities of nuclear proliferation, and the alarming influence of certain factions within the US military driven by apocalyptic beliefs. He argues that America's conventional military empire is bankrupt and that a strategy of disengagement, rather than continuous intervention, is the most sensible path forward. This episode is a must-listen for anyone seeking a deeper, more critical understanding of America's role in global conflicts and the long-term repercussions of its foreign policy decisions.
A post-Cold War US defense policy aiming for global military dominance and preventing any rival power from emerging. It dictated that the US would be dominant on every continent and would not tolerate any nation or alliance challenging its supremacy.
Why careThis doctrine laid the groundwork for aggressive US foreign policy, leading to military expansion and interventions in the Middle East and Eastern Europe.
A 1996 policy paper written for Benjamin Netanyahu, advocating for Israel to abandon peace processes with Palestinians and achieve security through total dominance over its neighbors, often by destabilizing hostile regimes with US help.
Why careThis doctrine influenced neoconservative thinking and contributed to the rationale for the Iraq War, aiming to reshape the Middle East in Israel's favor but ultimately empowering Iran.
The post-Cold War eastward expansion of NATO, despite promises to Russia not to do so, which is argued to be a primary provocation for Russia's antagonistic stance and the Ukraine conflict.
Why careThis expansion is presented as a key factor in escalating tensions with Russia, leading to the current geopolitical crisis in Ukraine and a new Cold War dynamic.
Iran's strategy of possessing the capability to enrich uranium to weapons-grade levels without actually building a nuclear bomb, serving as a deterrent against attack.
Why careThis strategy aimed to prevent external military intervention, but its effectiveness was challenged by US and Israeli policies that equated civilian enrichment with weapons development.
A term coined by Horton to describe immediate, overt terrorist attacks resulting directly from a nation's foreign policy actions, in contrast to 'blowback' which refers to long-term, secret consequences.
Why careThis concept highlights the direct and often rapid retaliatory consequences of aggressive foreign interventions, demonstrating the immediate dangers faced by a nation's citizens.
An economic theory suggesting that political decisions are made by individuals acting in their own self-interest, rather than solely for the public good. Horton applies this to foreign policy decisions.
Why careThis theory helps explain why policies that are detrimental to national interests, such as prolonged wars, might be pursued if they benefit politicians or powerful special interest groups.
"The neoconservatives are a cross between the Israel lobby and the military-industrial complex. The fighter bomber salesman needed eggheads to justify their policies. And the neoconservatives wanted to support Israel, wanted to support American hegemony and so took all the military-industrial complex money to build their think tanks to create their consensus to build their policy."
"If you just look at the fact that we did everything on that list except Iran, every single one of them took place except Iran. Like he's like, I really want to go and do that debate again and I can't get Coleman to sit down with me."
"It's just fascinating that this perspective is not being discussed or wasn't being discussed when it was in the news every day. When people were talking about Russia and Ukraine, it was always that Russia had done this horrible thing and attacked Ukraine, which was horrible, of course, but no one gave any background."
"We're getting such a good bang for our buck in Ukraine because just think about it, Russian soldiers are dying, but American soldiers are not. So, all we got to do is we just give them money and then they go fight."
"I'll tell you exactly what's going to happen here, okay? We're going to expand NATO right up close to Russia, and we're going to get a negative reaction from the Russians. And then as soon as we do, all of the people who are now telling us that'll never happen, don't worry about it, will then say, 'Aha, see, that's how the Russians are. That's why we have to do this.'"
"If that was my friend, you know, I would probably say, 'Let's let it go. Let's Let's figure this out. We have to go to the [expletive] press.' Yeah. Come on, bro. There's a guy both hammered. Killed and wounded a lot of people, that's for sure. Mostly vicariously, but not always."